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 Post subject: Nomenclature - a matter of interpretation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:44 am 
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Location: Sydney, Oz
no·men·cla·ture   /ˈnoʊmənˌkleɪtʃər, noʊˈmɛnklətʃər, -ˌtʃʊər/ [noh-muhn-kley-cher, noh-men-kluh-cher, -choor]

–noun
1. a set or system of names or terms, as those used in a particular science or art, by an individual or community, etc.

Gday all,

I'm new here and don't want to get off on the wrong foot, but I'm gonna try my best ;) What follows might open a can of worms or you all may be 'over it' already, or from this day forth (said in a deep, Yahweh type voice) I may be ridiculed and generally poked fun at... but anyway, here goes...

REMEMBER THIS; I am NOT an expert on this and probably far less well read than many of you on the history and technology of these machines. I'd just like to open a discussion, read others view and hopefully, in the end, learn something.

Regarding the names or -tags- people use for these machines. It is my understanding that they should be reffered to as F2 and F1. Now I know this may sound confusing when we all know that Ducati also sold the commercial machine as the 750 F1 (but no F2 - damned beancounters) as well, and to make it even worse, there are, I think, versions of the F1 and F2 that are important to distinguish. But here goes...

F1 and F2 I believe refers the the racing class that the machines were created to participate in. Both F2 and F1 being a formula ('F') that was capacity (and to an extent technology) limited to create 'classes' (class 1 and 2) of bikes that were eligible to compete. Rules for these classes stipulated that the crankcases needed to be from a production model as well as the crank stroke (58mm for the F2 - 61.5mm for the F1) having been commercially produced in a given number of machines - homologated. There are, I'm sure, a whole bunch of other rules the machines had to follow to be eligible to race in that class for that year according to the rules of that year. These classes existed for some years beforehand. For example, Ducati won at the IOM with Hailwood on an F1 class machine in '78. Someone 'in the know' might even like to produce a set of the class rules/specs from 1980ish, I know I'd be most interested to read them.

The 'TT' or Tourist Trophy, was a series of events held in Europe, in which there were races that the F1 and F2 machines were eligible. Thus there was a Tourist Trophy Formula 2 race and a Tourist Trophy Formula 1 race. Same scenario as the WSB/WSS series with two classes and the MotoGP, Moto2 and whatever they are going to call the little singles when they show.

What is often not mentioned is that while Mr Rutter was tearing up the World F2 (and to a lesser extent F1) fields, the F2 and F1 classes were raced at local and national level in many countries under those class names, though with some small variations in the rule set.

So when you build something now, and I want to stress here you can call it whatever the hell you like, afterall you built it, it's your machine.... but I think it should be;

Production F1. This also includes the Laguna Seca, Santa Monica and Montjuic variants. I'm not a real fan of the F1A and F1B tags, I think the technology changes in these models could be easily delineated by year.

F2 Series 1. The braced 'Pantah' framed machine. Twin shock rear.

F2 Series 2. '81? The classic trellis framed machine designed by Ing. Taglioni. Monoshock cantilever (I think). Variations occur in the series 2 with brakes, suspension, swingarm, etc. being updated in successive years.

F1 Series 1. '83-'84? machine using basically the same frame and suspension technology as the series 2 F2.

F1 Series 2. '85 machine, first use of radial slicks, monoshock w/ rising rate linkage (or is that better described as progressive? I dunno). Masses of magnesium, dry alternator, ignition/pickups outboard of the timing jackshaft & more. Kayaba copy forks, later known as M1R's (according to Cathcart). Easily I.D'd by the extended top tubes and thinner guage rear subframe tubing.

F1 Series 2 Endurance. Hmm, was there really much difference twixt this and the 'cooking' F1 s2 besides a larger alternator to run lights (and I'm not even sure of that)?

You could go even further to the F1 Serise 3 I guess.. but has anyone here even contemplated making a replica of the 4valve?

OK, so there you have it, what do you think you should call your machine now? Don't be shy, correct me where I'm wrong, add things I've missed, rip in, rev it up and have fun.

Garry.

p.s. Didn't Cathcart do a book on Ducati racing machines of this era?

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 Post subject: Re: Nomenclature - a matter of interpretation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:54 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Brisbane
Hello Gary,
There is no cause for ridicule or the poking of fun at with what you have said.
It makes perfect sense to me.
There was a factory produced F2 600cc with a Verlicchi frame sold in Australia in the early '80s.
I have seen 3 of these, 1 in Frazers window in Brisbane (it was hard to see by the second week due to all the lick marks on the glass) it had lights and all the road gear and was about $10k if I remember.
1 other at Lakeside track a year later, see picture.
And 1 on ebay in Victoria (Australia) 2 years ago.

Image

Yes Cathcart did a book with lots of pictures but very little written information. I have this book.

Mine is a TT2 "Replica" with modern bits, (yes and lights)

graeme


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 Post subject: Re: Nomenclature - a matter of interpretation
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:32 am
Posts: 7
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Location: Sydney, Oz
My reference to 'no F2 - damned beancounters' was that they did not produce a retail sales, street legal, Australian complied 600F2 machine... as they eventually did with the 750F1. Maybe there was still too many 600 and 650 pantahs in the warehouse at that time?

I do know that Frasers imported F2 bikes from Ducati, but as catalogued customer race machines.

Phil Ainsley took some shots of the one at Frasers Sydney shop back in the day, he recalls it as being in 1982. He has since photographed a couple of other factory original units. I think the ebay bike you mentioned is probably one of them. He has images of an '80 (pantah frame), an '81 (trellis - frasers in '82 "before it had turned a wheel" +recent shots) and an '83 (trellis). I've no idea how the dates/ages of the latter two have been established.. I would guess it's pretty hard to NOT know the history of these machines - they aren't exactly thick on the ground.

http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/index.php?cat=7

I'd really like to see the images Cathcart has of the '85 F1 machine.. I'm fascinated by the basic but effective tech employed and it's evolution. I have an AMCN period mag here with the Cathcart story (Rutter was testing the '85 gear) that I gaze at for hours, the longer I look the more I see. I'm sure there are plenty more images in your book. Got a scanner and some spare time? ;)

Garry.

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 Post subject: Re: Nomenclature - a matter of interpretation
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:03 pm
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Hi Garry, you make a few really good points. First and foremost people who are not familiar with Phil Ansley's photos should google his name and look at his TT pictures. They are beautiful and accurate to use for reference as the machines are original unrestored from the period. I met Phil once at Mid-Ohio in the US and he was not only a gentleman but was really happy when I told him I used his photos when restoring bikes to check for originality. The other point is in regards to history and the lack of good period photos and information. I guess that's we are all here for to change that 'problem'. We all have old photo's that need to be posted. I look at old photo's every night and seem to always find something new, no matter how many years I have had them. Dig up those old photos and post them! They are like finding buried treasure. Best Regards, Lou


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