There were plenty of well built and very fast Hawks and EX500's back in the day,if people drag them out of hibernation they'll be hard to catch along with the FZR400/600's. It would take a pretty hot Pantah 750 to run with them. A well prepped TZ will probably smoke all of them though.

A few things, bodywork and over-bore, confuse me. Can you shed some light on these Dave?

Engine
All machines must retain stock stroke. Bore may be increased to 2.0mm over.

1. So, can a TT2 use an 83 (+2mm over the 81mm spec) x 58mm combo? Equals 628cc.

2. And, could this kind of bodywork be used on a Pantah/Alazurra frame? It is of the era.



MikeV

Hay Mike I’ll try and inject an answer here.
Answer to #1 is YES you can use 2 mm over pistons.
Answer to # 2 is Maybe… this is a production based class but..
A creative rules interpretation would read that your full fairing would be legal as the pantah was not supplied with a full fairing.
Your bike would actually be eligible and more competitive in middle weight vintage superbike but would need production style bodywork and a pantah frame.

Rules for next generation superbike light weight is here (page 61)
https://www.ahrma.org/ahrma-handbook/
A request has been submitted to AHRMA to waiver the TT2 stock stroke rule for the new class due to availability of parts (i.e. 500 cranks and cylinders)


AHRMA still seems to think that there is some magic HP in the pantah motor.
History nor Dyno runs support that perception.
There still is no proper class for a TT1 or F1 in AHRMA. We had hoped this new class would be it. I even tried bribing them with Cranky beer!

The TT and F1 group will be attending the May AHRMA round at New Jersey. We plan on having a lineup of race bikes right up front in the paddock on display.
None of the bikes will be raced in silent protest…. Or we may run open megaphones and parade around the pits….not so silent protest!
We encourage others in our group to organize civil protest at their local AHRMA rounds.

Hallo Cranky.

The engine part is OK then --- understood. Even the TT2 gets +2mm, to 630CC. Although, in any case, special +2mm pistons for the 597cc (81mm ) TT2 and 650cc (82mm) engines will have to me made since I know of no one selling such parts now. A 650 then becomes 682cc --- a MONSTER! I guess a 500 or 583cc (stock 600) could just go to stock 82mm 650 pistons with a 61.5mm crank combo and still be an acceptable increase, and then go to 682cc. I guess the TT must stick with the 58mm crank though, and the paltry increase to 628cc.

The bodywork part is still clear as mud, even after reading the handbook. To me this is a "race replica" part, of the era, and kinda what they say they want. But, first is says "stock", and then it says …………?

This bike is a true Ducati Pantah 500SL 30+ lbs (not counting the swingarm) stock frame. And it is a true 650Ccc. Seems like it would fit in somewhere.

Thanks,
MikeV

PS: I bought the NOS (vintage) K.O. Lee valve seat grinding kit. I think it will work.

Can the heads be the new generation?

Hello to all,

I have some real world experiences to share with you all regarding the next gen lightweight class. Mike V, yes your Pantah racebike bodywork should be allowed. The last line in the bodywork section says period race team paint schemes are encouraged. Basically if it was period correct for that bike, and pre 1992, it will be good. There was a guy on the ahrma Facebook page that had an fzr400 with newer yzf bodywork and he got shot down.

Engines...yes 2mm over, so 82mm for the TT2 and 84mm for the Pantah. There was a question about newer generation heads. I usually have a more liberal interpretation of rules, if it doesn’t specifically say you CANT, my feeling is go for it. 1992 is the cutoff for bikes, and by that time Ducati had gone with the reversed rear head and smaller swingarm pin with needle bearings. The rules say you can update your parts as long as there is no performance gain and they are bolt on items. We all know that Pantah heads can be made to flow as well as the more modern heads with a ton of work...so there is no performance gain, it’s more of a parts availability and cost thing. That being said it might be best to ask Christopher Boy about it, he’s the chairman of that committee. I did speak with him and he would support a bump in displacement for the TT2 up to 650cc. Next year I will try to make that rules proposal, missed the deadline this year.

Now for some real world results. It looks as thought the current fast guy in the group is riding an EX500. His dad stopped by my pits and talked with me about my Pantah, and he is big into F1’s. Name was Chovnick, ring any bells? I race my Pantah in vintage superbike middleweight. It’s a 750 with the Bruce Meyer 13:1 pistons. 900ss carb cams, 41mm intakes, still using 36mm carbs. It’s putting out mid 60’s Hp. Not setting the world on fire but I have motor on everyone...even the class leader, and it is RELIABLE. Class leader is Paul Germain from Canada....he is FAST. I beat him for the very first time ever at Road America this year. At gingerman he and I were running consistent 1:46’s and 1:47’s. His fast lap was a 1:45. The next gen leader on the EX500 was also running 1:47’s. So my thoughts are that it will take a VERY WELL BUILT TT2 or Pantah to run with the EX500.

Dave

Thanks for the update Dave. Really glad to see you are still fighting on and off the track with the Pantah, and having some success. And it seems there is hope for others to enjoy racing a 1980s Ducati in AHRMA. Bikes and related parts all the way to 1992! A lot to play with there. MikeV

I believe that a solution would be that all the bikes mentioned in the regulation compete together, but then if the number of participants allows it, I would make a TT2 trophy and give a dedicated award.
I would do engines with an engine crankcase with tight studs, not a new generation monster, and I would do the bikes as they should be done, the verlicchi frames will be predominant but also GPM and Moretti, the geometries of the original chassis cannot be changed and run with wheels from 18 inches, the 16 inches only serves to fall to the ground, and whoever from more gas wins.

76 cv.....

Nice feedback from Dave and yes Carlo too.
We are Campaigning for the 650cc capacity in this class for the TT through channels.
Also propose to add to the class to include the TT-1 and F1s at 750CC. Here is what we submitted for 2020.
If we can get these changes I think another TT/F1 Symposium at Barber next year?
-Cranky-

Add a sub category “2” to existing Next Gen Superbike Lightweight(NGSLW) allowing a higher level of performance and more participants. This would allow bikes owned by AHRMA members presently excluded from this class to participate.

This class, NGSLW2 would run in the same wave as NGSLW but be scored separately.

Engine-Period correct pre- 1990 naturally aspirated from production bikes sold for street use.
Cases, cylinders and heads must be original and period correct.
Original stroke must be used.
Unlimited modifications within capacity listed are to be allowed.

Chassis-Pre 1990 but allow period correct aftermarket frames and swing arms.

Single cylinder, unlimited displacement.
2 cylinder 2 stroke water cooled 400 CC
2 cylinder 4 stroke water cooled to 704 CC (all Ex-500/Ninja 500 regardless of year)
2 cylinder 4 stroke air cooled to 780 cc
2 cylinder 4 stroke pushrod to 1050 cc ((Harley Sportster to 1200)
4 cylinder 4 stroke 2 valve to 685
4 cylinder 4 stroke 4 valve air cooled to 600 cc
4 cylinder 4 stroke 4 valve water cooled to 450 (Honda VF-500 stock capacity)

While there are existing classes that many of these bikes can “fit” into, they are not at all competitive so therefore are not being run. This class would allow many of these bikes, that quite a few of us still have, to be brought out and run again. As this proposed class is proposed to be run concurrently with an undersubscribed class, it would take no more track time and allow the grids to fill up a bit. I hope this proposal meets with your approval.

Hi Cranky, hello to all friends, theoretically the history and the regulations have already been written and quoted, and most of the time it is enough to do what the story has already told us for a long time.
it is strange that these problems are found in the USA, in Italy everything is bureaucracy, everything is forbidden, and everything is invented to avoid the ban.
In Italy you have to run exclusively with 18-inch wheels, and I think it's right, and the bikes must all be by 1983.
Then you see the higher displacements, 1000 open, and you find yourself a TT1 1000, HAHAHA !! With the hypermotard heads modified like pantah, they have to saw off the chassis to insert the engine block, I hate these things.
The Pantah category is one of the most beautiful categories ever created, I think that if they write a human regulation, everyone will have to gain.
Tomorrow Endurane Adria, 4 hours at night. Hi guys!