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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:35 am 
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Posts: 1122
Hello Gary. I am puzzled by this comment too, so would you please tell us more? Thanks, MikeV

"To make a late model small case conversion to a dry clutch you do need to redirect the oil flow within the motor."


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Hi Remco,

Man that sounds like a really cool engine build. Here are my concerns with your build, engine case strength. There are differences in small case motor strengths and Ducati made a big improvement in 1999 with the engine case re-design. The new 796 case are suppose to be lighter and stronger but I haven't gotten me hand on any yet. Older small case motors tend to cracvk at the right-hand side at the half shaft and real early motors had problems with transmission oiling. Newer cases will still crack but not as common. If you can use newer cases either new 800 or 796 case would be my suggestion because of better metalurgy and lower time since you are looking at high horsepower you may need them. I'm not sure as to the early F3 400, 6-speed as far as strength. The 800, 6-speed transmission is designed for the 1999 and newer cases, the shift drum is a bigger diameter on the right-hand side and also has a spring and wheel detent mounted on that side. If you are going to use it in early cases you will need to do some machine work. The newer cases also have the swingarm pivot running dry which is nice, as no leaks but as you noted swingarm spindle size and spacing can be an issue.

Are you going to use the 650 Pantah heads? What are your plans to get enough airflow to support the 90 to 100 hp? Anything special?

Remco and MikeV,

The newer small cases (1999 and newer) have the oil flow within the motor going slightly different as everything flows from the pump across the crank and to the heads. Once the oil is to the left-hand side of the motor it flows back to the transmission though the input shaft to the wet clutch. If you look at a new small case motors wet clutch you will see how it is drilled for oil coming from the center of the shaft out into the right-hand side and back to the case sump. Converting to a dry clutch you have to by pass the oil from the input shaft and seal were the push rod comes out. What I do is drill oiling holes in the input shaft at the transmission gear bearings (EDM the holes) and drill two .040" holes in the left-hand engine case next to the clutch push rod boss to bleed oil back to the sump. I also drill a small hole in the right-hand dry clutch side cover where the oil pump feeds the crank to oil the primary gears as the new design small case cranks don't have oiling throught the primary gears. I'm sure there are other ways, but this is what worked for me.

Good luck,

Palmer


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:23 am
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Thanks Gary. I have cut and paste this to a page for future reference. MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:37 pm
Posts: 361
Images: 6
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, The Great White North
Gary had the rebuilt and reconfigured motor back to me about a week ago and after a bit of motor paint touch-up, the machine was put back together in a few hours and lit up immediately. The idle required some fiddling, and the carbs needed a re-synch, but overall things sounded pretty damned good, so I booked in to a local dyno for the break-in and HP passes.

As I was increasing load and rpm on the break-in sessions, I began to get a sense that we'd picked-up a bunch of torque with the displacement increase and even if it cost a bit of HP in the trade, I figured that would be a very good thing. As I got into the last two break-in cycles and applied close to full throttle, I could tell just by the seat of my pants that we had a much meatier engine in the 840. We did one full HP pass, looked at the results, studied the A/F and called it a day. ..There wasn't a damned thing to be done!

Same HP (if not maybe a bit more) and a torque curve that will better suit my lazy, old guy riding style. In fact - on paper at least - the Yellow Bike should almost stomp out of corners with the same authority that the old 853 does.

Once again, kudos and many thanks to Gary for what feels like one helluva superb engine!

Grattan in 10 days - can't wait.

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Steve Munro
loudbike
http://www.loudbike.com
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesforsale.com


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:47 am
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Thanks Steve.

Now I have to see if I can build a bigger, badder motor for motor for my bike or not.

Here are some pictures of the F1 with the race body work, still working on getting the oil catch pn mounted in the pictures.

Palmer


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:14 am 
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, The Great White North
Palmer wrote:
Thanks Steve.
Now I have to see if I can build a bigger, badder motor for motor for my bike or not.
Here are some pictures of the F1 with the race body work, still working on getting the oil catch pn mounted in the pictures.
Palmer


Gary - no doubt in my mind that the motor will be bigger and badder :D

The bike looks fabulous! I'll get the 'loudbike' decals off to you with the fairing mount and ignition pick-ups.

Good job!

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Steve Munro
loudbike
http://www.loudbike.com
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesforsale.com


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:37 pm
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, The Great White North
I went to Grattan in Michigan this week for the 3-day SSR event and got a chance to sample the new 840cc motor and - WOW, what a different beast! While the serious HP hit was softened a bit, the newly-found bottom and mid made the bike a joy to ride. If I got a good drive out of the last corner, I could hold-off a standard 1098 for most of the front straight (not kidding). Handling was flawless; with just a bit of compression added to the front end.

Gary joined me with his new F1 on Thursday and even with the "street" motor, the bike had really good speed. Very nice looking piece as well! I thought I was going pretty well - running down most of the quick guys on modern Ducatis in the "A" group until he showed-up.. To say that Gary is fast would be like saying that Einstein was smart. It was a treat watching him carve up the Grattan circuit..

We swapped machines in the afternoon and it was remarkable (or maybe not) how similar the two bikes felt. Great time and an excellent preview to Barber.
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Steve Munro
loudbike
http://www.loudbike.com
http://www.vintagemotorcyclesforsale.com


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:42 am 
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Steve,

The yellow bike turned out fantastic. It was great fun to ride at Grattan.

After riding Steve version of the yellow bike I have only two complaints. One, the front brake master cylinder that Steve likes is a Brembo 16 x 18 and the one I personel like is the 18 x 19, so I couldn't quite get use to the lever travel and two, I had to give it back.

My new bike work really well and I have a list of about four items that have to be resolved before Barber:
1. Quicker turning throttle.
2. Install the fuel pump to resolve fuel starvation issues.
3. Raise the foot pegs or buy several pairs of boots.
4. Build a race motor.

Speaking of the raising the foot pegs, it was interesting to compare the two bikes as the steering head angle, forks and swingarm are all the same. Steve runs a 5.5" rear wheel with a 180 section slick and I run a 5.0" rear wheel with a 165 section slick. I couldn't tell any handling or turning differences between the two bikes when riding them back to back on the same track. Maybe if I go to a 5.5" wheel and a 180 slick and raising the front I could keep from destroying my boots. Something to think about.

Palmer


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:23 am
Posts: 1122
Thanks so much Steve for these great photos of these beautifully-built bikes. They will serve as some inspiration, and I will search them for helpful details. And, thanks for the photo of Mr. Palmer (kinda looks like a Reno Leoni-era at-work pose); maybe I can identify him at Barber---where I hope we will see and hear them perform. MikeV


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 Post subject: Re: Palmer / Munro F1 Hot-Rod Build-Off
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:34 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts USA
Hi Steve and Gary,
Your two bikes are some of the best looking I've ever seen! Great photos, thanks for sharing them. It sounds like it was a great day of riding.

Is #666 Steve's bike and #75 Gary's?

I just checked my F1 and it comes in at 322 lbs with generator and starter, without gasoline but otherwise ready to ride. Do you know how much yours weigh? They look very light, especially when you take off the lower fairing it makes them look so slim.
Rich


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